[Jabberwalker]

Regina Regina:

andyt andyt:

We didn't whoop ass during the cold war, we can't whoop ass now. In fact we've never whoop assed the Russians. Looks like we have to go thru the long, slow, process of attrition instead, but with the economic instability of the west, even that's not a sure thing.

Kicking someones ass isn't necessarily bombing them to oblivion and having white sheets hanging out the window. The west won the Cold War on a number of fronts which also included the odd military tussle by proxy or direct involvement. The Berlin wall signaled defeat but it was a done deal before then.

I'd say that it was a done deal when Russian tanks left Afghanistan.

All of those Islamic SSRs and Chechnya, Georgia, etc....military defeat along the Silk Road.

[BartSimpson]

The Russians accomplished their territorial gains in Georgia but not without their tanks and APC's getting a taste of what modern anti-tank warfare feels like.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

The thing is they're not the only problem on the radar. Gotta keeps some troops for Iraq3.

Maybe it would work. The difference is that the old USSR leaders were solidly ensconced, getting a bloody nose didn't threaten their position, especially with censorship preventing the news from reaching the people. Putin, if he looks weak, he's gone. It's why he's up to his shenanigans in the first place. He wouldn't be as rational as the USSR leadership was. I know we all miss the cold war with the clear rules and all, but these are different times, might need different responses.

Operating with clear rules that your enemy understands goes a long way to preventing a war. I know as a leftist you're philosophically opposed to such things but appreciate that in the military sphere everyone is better off when we all understand what each other will do in different situations.

Vague rules lead to wars.

And these are different times, with those rules no longer being followed by Putin. Or the West for that matter, messing in what Russia sees as its sphere of influence. We never would have dared to do that during the cold war. One of the rules that was clearly established then was which countries belonged where. We didn't step in with Hungary, Czechoslovakia or even Poland and East Germany.

[CDN_PATRIOT]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The nerve of the fucking Russians! A few hundred of our people are going to 'destabilize' Ukraine but a few regiments of their goddam troops are just fine.

It's time to ramp up to the same level of sanctions we had on these bastards back in the Soviet days. Cut them off from trade and let the rat bastards line up for bread again.

Enough. I am so sick and tired of the West being pushed around and bullied by every damnable thug on the planet!

It is time...

0:

redwhitefight.png [ 189.57 KiB | Viewed 635 times ]

Let's do this.



-J.

[Canadian_Mind]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The nerve of the fucking Russians! A few hundred of our people are going to 'destabilize' Ukraine but a few regiments of their goddam troops are just fine.

It's time to ramp up to the same level of sanctions we had on these bastards back in the Soviet days. Cut them off from trade and let the rat bastards line up for bread again.

Enough. I am so sick and tired of the West being pushed around and bullied by every damnable thug on the planet!

It is time...

0:

redwhitefight.png

Let's do this.



-J.

Are you enlisted?

[ShepherdsDog]

translation of 'let's do this'....I'm brave when it comes to risking the lives of others.

[Canadian_Mind]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

translation of 'let's do this'....I'm brave when it comes to risking the lives of others.

No shit. I entered the service intending to end up in a warzone specifically so I could say I went through that shit before I voice whether I think bullets should or shouldn't fly.

That said, I think Bart is right on this one. A line needs to be drawn again, and all incursions across it need to be met with whatever force is necessary. I don't think we can save all of Ukraine, but I think we could save half of it and wait for Russia to implode again before re-integrating the eastern half and Crimea with the western half. Better that Antonov and Ukraine's other military industries are in control of those who align themselves with the west rather than in control of Russia.

Andy is also right. The west is much weaker now than it was during the cold war. But Russia is weaker as well. If we have only half the assets and money now compared to what we did from 1945-1989, the Russians only have a quarter. For all our economic woes (we went through several significant downturns during the cold war) Russians are far worse off.

So yes, bring it. But for the love of Christ, if you think we should wage war, are a fighting age male, and haven't already served/are currently serving, you better be fucking willing to wear the boots. Casualty counts are just statistics until the rounds are coming at you and the statistics are your best friends.

[Jabberwalker]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The nerve of the fucking Russians! A few hundred of our people are going to 'destabilize' Ukraine but a few regiments of their goddam troops are just fine.

It's time to ramp up to the same level of sanctions we had on these bastards back in the Soviet days. Cut them off from trade and let the rat bastards line up for bread again.

Enough. I am so sick and tired of the West being pushed around and bullied by every damnable thug on the planet!

It is time...

0:

redwhitefight.png

Let's do this.



-J.

So!

You've finally joined up !?!

[andyt]

That's not the part to think whether I was right about. What you are talking about is a full scale match up of forces - if it comes to that, the losing side will go nuclear real quick, and then all the military toys each side has won't matter - each side still has plenty of nukes, as far as I know.

The big difference is who's in charge at the Kremlin. As I said, the old style politburo was much more secure, wouldn't worry about losing a few tanks or planes in a skirmish. (And of course in a skirmish each side might be the stronger at that moment, since it's unplanned and depends on the local resources brought to bear.) And they could keep the info about this skirmish from the general population.

Putin is acting out to maintain his position, which is tenuous if he doesn't deliver. If he is deposed, very real chance that's the end of of him, so there's nothing holding him back from escalating, never backing down. Also fits the macho image he's cultivated. So a spanking that gives him an out might be effective, but takes fare more finesse to engineer. And there's no more keeping the Rooshians ignorant, they have the internet too.

[Canadian_Mind]

andyt andyt:

That's not the part to think whether I was right about. What you are talking about is a full scale match up of forces - if it comes to that, the losing side will go nuclear real quick, and then all the military toys each side has won't matter - each side still has plenty of nukes, as far as I know.

The big difference is who's in charge at the Kremlin. As I said, the old style politburo was much more secure, wouldn't worry about losing a few tanks or planes in a skirmish. (And of course in a skirmish each side might be the stronger at that moment, since it's unplanned and depends on the local resources brought to bear.) And they could keep the info about this skirmish from the general population.

Putin is acting out to maintain his position, which is tenuous if he doesn't deliver. If he is deposed, very real chance that's the end of of him, so there's nothing holding him back from escalating, never backing down. Also fits the macho image he's cultivated. So a spanking that gives him an out might be effective, but takes fare more finesse to engineer. And there's no more keeping the Rooshians ignorant, they have the internet too.

I don't think Putin would go maniacal and start firing off nukes. Things may not be as stable up top as they were in the Soviet Union days, but the aristocracy still has a tremendous amount of pull. I don't think they'd let Putin use nukes.

So yes, I agree there is a much higher likelihood that a skirmish would very quickly escalate. But not to nuclear war.

[andyt]

I think once it's escalated to full one war, going nuclear by the losing side would be inevitable. It's what MAD was designed to prevent, but only if both sides stepped back from the brink. Once Putin has invested so much rep that he's going to full on war, no way do I think he'd be willing to back off at some point and admit defeat. For that matter, I doubt the West, certianly not the US would either. Potus would also be under a lot of pressure to up the game here.

[Canadian_Mind]

andyt andyt:

I think once it's escalated to full one war, going nuclear by the losing side would be inevitable. It's what MAD was designed to prevent, but only if both sides stepped back from the brink. Once Putin has invested so much rep that he's going to full on war, no way do I think he'd be willing to back off at some point and admit defeat. For that matter, I doubt the West, certianly not the US would either. Potus would also be under a lot of pressure to up the game here.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure the aristocracy will reign in Putin before he resorts to nukes. They'd rather loose and keep their riches than lose and be poor/dead.

[andyt]

Who are these aristocrats? Do you mean the oligarchs? The ones behind Putin would also fall if Russia was defeated in a war. My guess is there would be another revolution of some sort in that case. Russia isn't a stable country that could be rebuilt the way Germany was after the war. (note that Germany had a revolution after WWI). Other oligarchs, as we've seen, are against Putin but not powerful enough to stop him doing anything, including imprisoning him.

If we really want to go to war with Russia over Ukraine, we'd better really mean it and show full resolve. I don't think that exists in the West, especially in Europe, but also the US. The US likes to talk tough but doesn't have the stomach for the long haul. Putin knows that. So an ineffective punch on our side will I think cause him to amp up, and I don't think we are prepared to take it further at that point. Maybe that's my bias that it's only worth fighting if you're truly threatened, but then you go all in.

[Canadian_Mind]

Yea them. I don't think it would play out that way. When it is clear that a loss in inevitable, they'd sooner find a way to preserve their wealth then end the world.

I agree with your second paragraph.

[Thanos]

Modern Russia explained for those who are too worried about them. Freeze a few more billionaires bank accounts and they'll probably take care of Putin for us.